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	<title>Comments for Hills Bible Church Blog</title>
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	<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org</link>
	<description>Know God&#039;s Word - Live by God&#039;s Word -         Commit to God&#039;s Work - Impact God&#039;s World</description>
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		<title>Comment on Baptism and the Great Commission by Martin Pakula</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/02/03/baptism-and-the-great-commission-3/#comment-875</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Pakula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 21:29:50 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7553#comment-875</guid>
		<description>Hi Don.  How&#039;s Canada going?!  Thanks for your reply.  I hear what you are saying, however I don&#039;t think you have really addressed what Broughton Knox has said.  That&#039;s partly my fault for putting a brief section of his views here.  He is asserting that water baptism is John&#039;s baptism that continued for some time, not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus talked about.  And I don&#039;t think you have addressed why Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, did not carry out this &#039;command&#039; (if it is a command to baptise with water).
As for Knox&#039;s view on this being a secondary issue - those are more my words (partly his).  My point is that there is no clear teaching on baptism one way or the other, and therefore we should not divide over such things.  I understand though that you do not agree with that assertion.
Finally, Knox&#039;s argument has piles of evidence and is not an argument from silence.  I have given several of his arguments in summary, but he gives a very full and excellent exposition of the Scriptures in the reference I gave.  His point is that the Scriptures do not back up Baptist, Anglican, Presbyterian or any other church traditions in this area.
Anyway, his view is radical, and I&#039;m glad that you have given the main-stream regular counter-view.  But as far as I&#039;m concerned, there is a lot of food for thought here...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Don.  How&#8217;s Canada going?!  Thanks for your reply.  I hear what you are saying, however I don&#8217;t think you have really addressed what Broughton Knox has said.  That&#8217;s partly my fault for putting a brief section of his views here.  He is asserting that water baptism is John&#8217;s baptism that continued for some time, not the baptism of the Holy Spirit that Jesus talked about.  And I don&#8217;t think you have addressed why Paul, the apostle to the Gentiles, did not carry out this &#8216;command&#8217; (if it is a command to baptise with water).<br />
As for Knox&#8217;s view on this being a secondary issue &#8211; those are more my words (partly his).  My point is that there is no clear teaching on baptism one way or the other, and therefore we should not divide over such things.  I understand though that you do not agree with that assertion.<br />
Finally, Knox&#8217;s argument has piles of evidence and is not an argument from silence.  I have given several of his arguments in summary, but he gives a very full and excellent exposition of the Scriptures in the reference I gave.  His point is that the Scriptures do not back up Baptist, Anglican, Presbyterian or any other church traditions in this area.<br />
Anyway, his view is radical, and I&#8217;m glad that you have given the main-stream regular counter-view.  But as far as I&#8217;m concerned, there is a lot of food for thought here&#8230;</p>
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		<title>Comment on Baptism and the Great Commission by Don</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/02/03/baptism-and-the-great-commission-3/#comment-874</link>
		<dc:creator>Don</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 03 Feb 2012 18:35:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7553#comment-874</guid>
		<description>Being  a Baptist by conviction, I cannot let this post go by without a response.

With C.H. Spurgeon and John MacArthur, I assert that the New Testament teaches that believers are to be baptised.  

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1627.htm 

http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0001.htm 

Both men proclaim the necessity for Christians to be baptised in order to be obedient to the &quot;The Great Commission&quot; of Jesus Christ. 

Spurgeon writes:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;We finally maintain that our view of the commission is correct, because the apostles so understood it, as their subsequent conduct and writings abundantly evidence. Peter on the day of Pentecost first preached the gospel of Christ, and then taught the anxiously enquiring to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. They must change their minds, having been unbelieving in regard to Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour, and on this faith in Christ, to which God&#039;s Spirit was drawing and helping them, be baptized, thus in obedience to Christ, avowing their belief in him as the Messiah and their Saviour. And after further exhortation and instruction from Peter, &quot;Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued steadfastly in the apostle&#039;s doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

MacArthur adds:
&lt;blockquote&gt;&quot;The church is commanded to baptize. The individual is commanded to be baptized. There is really no lack of clarity with regard to this. In fact, in each of the cases where the great commission is given, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, there&#039;s an emphasis on baptism. In spite of this, there is widespread noncompliance with what is a very simple command. In many ways, it&#039;s sort of the easiest act of obedience as a Christian you can do because all the rest have to do with sorting out the stuff that&#039;s in your mind and heart, for the most part. This simple act , when obediently done, demonstrates a heart that seeks to honor the Word of the Lord.&quot;&lt;/blockquote&gt;

I disagree with D. Broughton Knox that because there is diverse opinion on baptism we should keep our views on the subject &quot;very firmly in a secondary place&quot;. Since when has the importance of a doctrine depended upon common agreement? Surely, the importance of a doctrine is determined by the prominence it is given in Scripture. And the Bible has much to say on this subject.

Although baptism is in itself a metaphor, Broughton is incorrect when he states &quot;that Jesus is giving a “fully metaphorical use of the concept of baptizing&quot;. We do not interpret the disciple making or teaching portion of the great commission as metaphorical - why would we when it comes to baptism? 

Baptism is the metaphor the Scripture uses to teach  believers (and those who observe the act of baptism) concerning the deep mystery of salvation. Paul elaborates this in Romans 6:2-5. However, without the actual practice of baptism, there is no metaphor. The reality that the metaphor represents is not the metaphor. 

The Scriptural record of the early followers of Christ  is that they understood Jesus words to be carried out in real terms with concrete action. (Acts 2:38, 2:41, 8:12, 8:13, 8:36, 9:18, 10:48, 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 19:5, 22:16).

Finally, an argument based on silence or even scant evidence is a weak argument. Paul did baptise. He names a few of those whom he baptised and admits he cannot be sure how many other people this involved other than those he names. He states that his primary ministry was to preach the gospel (1 Cor. 1:17). He was concerned that being a baptiser would contribute to the tendency of establishing a personality cult, so he concentrated on the mission to which God had called him.

Although a minor point, evangelicals tend to avoid formulaic terminology, i.e baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. When one baptises, this is what is happening whether these words are expressed or not. The Scripture records that believers were baptised in the &quot;name of Jesus&quot;. Since on cannot separate one member of the Trinity from the others as the the three coexist in one, then baptising in the name of Jesus is synonymous with baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Being  a Baptist by conviction, I cannot let this post go by without a response.</p>
<p>With C.H. Spurgeon and John MacArthur, I assert that the New Testament teaches that believers are to be baptised.  </p>
<p><a href="http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1627.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/1627.htm</a> </p>
<p><a href="http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0001.htm" rel="nofollow">http://www.ondoctrine.com/2mac0001.htm</a> </p>
<p>Both men proclaim the necessity for Christians to be baptised in order to be obedient to the &#8220;The Great Commission&#8221; of Jesus Christ. </p>
<p>Spurgeon writes:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;We finally maintain that our view of the commission is correct, because the apostles so understood it, as their subsequent conduct and writings abundantly evidence. Peter on the day of Pentecost first preached the gospel of Christ, and then taught the anxiously enquiring to repent and be baptized in the name of Jesus Christ. They must change their minds, having been unbelieving in regard to Jesus as the Messiah and Saviour, and on this faith in Christ, to which God&#8217;s Spirit was drawing and helping them, be baptized, thus in obedience to Christ, avowing their belief in him as the Messiah and their Saviour. And after further exhortation and instruction from Peter, &#8220;Then they that gladly received his word were baptized: and the same day there were added unto them about three thousand souls. And they continued steadfastly in the apostle&#8217;s doctrine and fellowship, and in breaking of bread, and in prayers.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>MacArthur adds:</p>
<blockquote><p>&#8220;The church is commanded to baptize. The individual is commanded to be baptized. There is really no lack of clarity with regard to this. In fact, in each of the cases where the great commission is given, in Matthew, Mark, and Luke, there&#8217;s an emphasis on baptism. In spite of this, there is widespread noncompliance with what is a very simple command. In many ways, it&#8217;s sort of the easiest act of obedience as a Christian you can do because all the rest have to do with sorting out the stuff that&#8217;s in your mind and heart, for the most part. This simple act , when obediently done, demonstrates a heart that seeks to honor the Word of the Lord.&#8221;</p></blockquote>
<p>I disagree with D. Broughton Knox that because there is diverse opinion on baptism we should keep our views on the subject &#8220;very firmly in a secondary place&#8221;. Since when has the importance of a doctrine depended upon common agreement? Surely, the importance of a doctrine is determined by the prominence it is given in Scripture. And the Bible has much to say on this subject.</p>
<p>Although baptism is in itself a metaphor, Broughton is incorrect when he states &#8220;that Jesus is giving a “fully metaphorical use of the concept of baptizing&#8221;. We do not interpret the disciple making or teaching portion of the great commission as metaphorical &#8211; why would we when it comes to baptism? </p>
<p>Baptism is the metaphor the Scripture uses to teach  believers (and those who observe the act of baptism) concerning the deep mystery of salvation. Paul elaborates this in Romans 6:2-5. However, without the actual practice of baptism, there is no metaphor. The reality that the metaphor represents is not the metaphor. </p>
<p>The Scriptural record of the early followers of Christ  is that they understood Jesus words to be carried out in real terms with concrete action. (Acts 2:38, 2:41, 8:12, 8:13, 8:36, 9:18, 10:48, 16:15, 16:33, 18:8, 19:5, 22:16).</p>
<p>Finally, an argument based on silence or even scant evidence is a weak argument. Paul did baptise. He names a few of those whom he baptised and admits he cannot be sure how many other people this involved other than those he names. He states that his primary ministry was to preach the gospel (1 Cor. 1:17). He was concerned that being a baptiser would contribute to the tendency of establishing a personality cult, so he concentrated on the mission to which God had called him.</p>
<p>Although a minor point, evangelicals tend to avoid formulaic terminology, i.e baptise in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit. When one baptises, this is what is happening whether these words are expressed or not. The Scripture records that believers were baptised in the &#8220;name of Jesus&#8221;. Since on cannot separate one member of the Trinity from the others as the the three coexist in one, then baptising in the name of Jesus is synonymous with baptising in the name of the Father, Son and Spirit.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Predestination and Free Will Part One: Predestination by Lyn</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/23/predestination-and-free-will-part-one-predestination/#comment-869</link>
		<dc:creator>Lyn</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2012 18:39:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7404#comment-869</guid>
		<description>Hi Martin, We are obviously going to disagree on this issue. Sadly, I think you may have stereotyped me with your view of those who do not hold  to predestination doctrines from a Calvinist/Reformed standpoint. Be assured, I take our sinfulness  and  need of God-provided salvation very seriously. I think where we differ is on my seeing acceptance of the gift of salvation as not part of an effort of us saving ourselves, whereas, it appears, you do see it as such. I also see that predestination has to do with the ongoing work God does in transforming us into the image of Christ which culminates at the end of the Age. I believe it is an assurance of us being perfected in Christ. We are predestined to be like Him. I also believe it is important to base our understanding of this issue on the New Covenant predominantly.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Martin, We are obviously going to disagree on this issue. Sadly, I think you may have stereotyped me with your view of those who do not hold  to predestination doctrines from a Calvinist/Reformed standpoint. Be assured, I take our sinfulness  and  need of God-provided salvation very seriously. I think where we differ is on my seeing acceptance of the gift of salvation as not part of an effort of us saving ourselves, whereas, it appears, you do see it as such. I also see that predestination has to do with the ongoing work God does in transforming us into the image of Christ which culminates at the end of the Age. I believe it is an assurance of us being perfected in Christ. We are predestined to be like Him. I also believe it is important to base our understanding of this issue on the New Covenant predominantly.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Redefining Marriage is Unbiblical by Adam</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/28/redefining-marriage-is-unbiblical/#comment-866</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 29 Jan 2012 01:18:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7510#comment-866</guid>
		<description>Thanks, Martin, for your insight into what is definitely a complex issue. I really should leave this alone, but I will say this, so I am not misunderstood.

You have in a sense made my point regarding the definition of marriage in saying, &quot;there is a progression in what happens with it through the Bible&quot;. That is, in essence, what I was arguing; that because there is a progression of the idea of marriage in the bible itself, it seems troublesome to argue that redefinition of marriage is unbiblical. I wasn&#039;t suggesting that the writers of the NT condoned polygamy; Paul seems very much in favour of monogamy. To draw out a biblical moral code to live by today would, of course, entail a systematic theology. 

My point really boils down to whether a redefinition of marriage is actually unbiblical when there is clearly a progression of the status of marriage in the bible itself, of which God on occasion appears rather indifferent to cases of polygamy, even after the Law. 

A clear example is documented in the story of David, the Lord&#039;s anointed, who took for himself many wives and slept with others to produce offspring, to which there is no mention of any wrongdoing, except in the case where he was found guilty for plotting the death of Uriah. In this case, though, he is guilty of his plotting to kill Uriah so he could have his wife. It was wrong to steal another&#039;s wife by killing the man, but not the polygamy itself. In fact God says, through his prophet Nathan in 2 Samuel 12:8, &quot;I gave you your master&#039;s house and your master&#039;s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more!&quot;, implying that &quot;I could have given you more wives!&quot;. God rewarded his anointed with many wives. As a punishment for organising Uriah&#039;s death, God arranges for the wives of David to be taken away and given to someone else to sleep with for all Israel to witness (2 Samuel 12:11-12). Women, far from being protected by a faithful husband in a monogamous marriage are given away as men&#039;s possessions to be had. 

I don&#039;t wish to put words into God&#039;s mouth. His words are already there, written down. The God of the Bible appears to have found polygamy, in these examples, as something perfectly acceptable. However, I do not propose that a systematic theology would necessarily come up with the conclusion, &#039;polygamy is biblically acceptable&#039;, except if it allowed for internal inconsistencies of which there are clear examples. 

I trust that my response is not taken to be unnecessarily argumentative. To the extent that we aim to better understand how God feels about polygamy, and ultimately how we think about a biblical definition of marriage and whether it fitting to redefine it, I think it is worth going through some of the nitty gritty. 

Cheers,
Adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks, Martin, for your insight into what is definitely a complex issue. I really should leave this alone, but I will say this, so I am not misunderstood.</p>
<p>You have in a sense made my point regarding the definition of marriage in saying, &#8220;there is a progression in what happens with it through the Bible&#8221;. That is, in essence, what I was arguing; that because there is a progression of the idea of marriage in the bible itself, it seems troublesome to argue that redefinition of marriage is unbiblical. I wasn&#8217;t suggesting that the writers of the NT condoned polygamy; Paul seems very much in favour of monogamy. To draw out a biblical moral code to live by today would, of course, entail a systematic theology. </p>
<p>My point really boils down to whether a redefinition of marriage is actually unbiblical when there is clearly a progression of the status of marriage in the bible itself, of which God on occasion appears rather indifferent to cases of polygamy, even after the Law. </p>
<p>A clear example is documented in the story of David, the Lord&#8217;s anointed, who took for himself many wives and slept with others to produce offspring, to which there is no mention of any wrongdoing, except in the case where he was found guilty for plotting the death of Uriah. In this case, though, he is guilty of his plotting to kill Uriah so he could have his wife. It was wrong to steal another&#8217;s wife by killing the man, but not the polygamy itself. In fact God says, through his prophet Nathan in 2 Samuel 12:8, &#8220;I gave you your master&#8217;s house and your master&#8217;s wives into your keeping, and gave you the house of Israel and Judah. And if that had been too little, I also would have given you much more!&#8221;, implying that &#8220;I could have given you more wives!&#8221;. God rewarded his anointed with many wives. As a punishment for organising Uriah&#8217;s death, God arranges for the wives of David to be taken away and given to someone else to sleep with for all Israel to witness (2 Samuel 12:11-12). Women, far from being protected by a faithful husband in a monogamous marriage are given away as men&#8217;s possessions to be had. </p>
<p>I don&#8217;t wish to put words into God&#8217;s mouth. His words are already there, written down. The God of the Bible appears to have found polygamy, in these examples, as something perfectly acceptable. However, I do not propose that a systematic theology would necessarily come up with the conclusion, &#8216;polygamy is biblically acceptable&#8217;, except if it allowed for internal inconsistencies of which there are clear examples. </p>
<p>I trust that my response is not taken to be unnecessarily argumentative. To the extent that we aim to better understand how God feels about polygamy, and ultimately how we think about a biblical definition of marriage and whether it fitting to redefine it, I think it is worth going through some of the nitty gritty. </p>
<p>Cheers,<br />
Adam</p>
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		<title>Comment on Redefining Marriage is Unbiblical by Martin Pakula</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/28/redefining-marriage-is-unbiblical/#comment-865</link>
		<dc:creator>Martin Pakula</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 20:26:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7510#comment-865</guid>
		<description>Hi Adam &amp; Simon
I can see merit in what both of you are saying.  I really like what Simon has done with the sweep of the Bible.  We need to do a Biblical Theology of marriage - there is a progression in what happens with it through the Bible.  However I think Adam is correct on Genesis itself.  Genesis clearly teaches polygamy.  However it also has many other examples that are in fact quite against the Law given in Exodus, the next book (making of sacred pillars, setting up altars, marrying a close relative, etc).  It would never do to take an example from Genesis and uphold it as something to be followed today (without going through a thorough Biblical theology of the issue - that is, tracing the theme through the Bible).  So Simon in the end is quite correct, since, of course, the New Testament/ Jesus speak very clearly against polygamy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hi Adam &amp; Simon<br />
I can see merit in what both of you are saying.  I really like what Simon has done with the sweep of the Bible.  We need to do a Biblical Theology of marriage &#8211; there is a progression in what happens with it through the Bible.  However I think Adam is correct on Genesis itself.  Genesis clearly teaches polygamy.  However it also has many other examples that are in fact quite against the Law given in Exodus, the next book (making of sacred pillars, setting up altars, marrying a close relative, etc).  It would never do to take an example from Genesis and uphold it as something to be followed today (without going through a thorough Biblical theology of the issue &#8211; that is, tracing the theme through the Bible).  So Simon in the end is quite correct, since, of course, the New Testament/ Jesus speak very clearly against polygamy.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Redefining Marriage is Unbiblical by Adam</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/28/redefining-marriage-is-unbiblical/#comment-864</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:42:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7510#comment-864</guid>
		<description>Hey Simon,

Fair call. Although, I think we are still on the topic of the biblical definition of marriage, despite the slight divergence into whether God condoned polygamous means in working towards his ends.  I don&#039;t mean to be argumentative for the sake of it, despite the internet making it quite easy to be. I am actually concerned about how we come to the conclusions we reach. Thanks for the discussion. Talk to you next time.
Cheers,
Adam</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hey Simon,</p>
<p>Fair call. Although, I think we are still on the topic of the biblical definition of marriage, despite the slight divergence into whether God condoned polygamous means in working towards his ends.  I don&#8217;t mean to be argumentative for the sake of it, despite the internet making it quite easy to be. I am actually concerned about how we come to the conclusions we reach. Thanks for the discussion. Talk to you next time.<br />
Cheers,<br />
Adam</p>
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		<title>Comment on Redefining Marriage is Unbiblical by Simon</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/28/redefining-marriage-is-unbiblical/#comment-863</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 11:24:58 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7510#comment-863</guid>
		<description>Adam, I fear we are getting further and further off topic!  I&#039;ll try and round off this discussion as neutrally as possible, to prevent me getting the &quot;last word&quot;, so to speak.

Your conception of God, and how this God might work in our world, is evidently different to mine. Suffice to say, I don&#039;t agree with your conclusions in your most recent comment. With that in mind, it might be best to agree to respectfully disagree at this juncture. I&#039;m very happy to have this discussion, but we should keep the comments on the topic of the blog post. Thanks for your thoughtful input, and hope to see you back here soon!</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Adam, I fear we are getting further and further off topic!  I&#8217;ll try and round off this discussion as neutrally as possible, to prevent me getting the &#8220;last word&#8221;, so to speak.</p>
<p>Your conception of God, and how this God might work in our world, is evidently different to mine. Suffice to say, I don&#8217;t agree with your conclusions in your most recent comment. With that in mind, it might be best to agree to respectfully disagree at this juncture. I&#8217;m very happy to have this discussion, but we should keep the comments on the topic of the blog post. Thanks for your thoughtful input, and hope to see you back here soon!</p>
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		<title>Comment on Redefining Marriage is Unbiblical by Adam</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/28/redefining-marriage-is-unbiblical/#comment-862</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 08:48:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7510#comment-862</guid>
		<description>Simon, before disagreeing with you (I note your respectful disagreement with my interpretation), I will say that, yes, some systematic theology is helpful in producing a more cohesive picture of what the Bible says on a particular issue (my take on what you said). However, it does by necessity assume that 1) all scripture can be systematised, and 2) that its systematisation allows for a clearer understanding of individual cases in the Bible. Without getting into a post-modernist debate about rejections of meta-narratives or whatever, the formation of a systematic theology does not occur without reference to one&#039;s own historical setting, embedded as it is in particular cultural understandings. So, yes, whilst I can see that systematic theology could help make better sense of a confusing portion of scripture, it itself exists in tension with what could otherwise be read as an internal contradiction. 

Now, to respectfully disagree with you. :) 
By arguing that God uses &#039;bad&#039; situations for his own ends, begs the question of what ends and in what ways do they justify their means. 

In the story told here in Genesis 30, God directly intervenes in the lives of people in a way that creates a particular situation. In this example, God controls the fertility of both women that creates a situation that aggravates sibling/ intra-marital rivalry. In producing such a scenario, God then rewards his subjects through acts that are morally questionable - the giving of servants to produce offspring, which effectively amounts to sex slavery if we assume that those maids had no choice but to sleep with Jacob. If God does not approve the situation that he has had a large role in creating, or at least does not morally approve of the means involved, then it seems very strange that he created the situation to begin with. By arguing that God uses unacceptable means to achieve his more purposeful ends, seems to imply that God has no choice but use those means, despite it being the case in this story that he explicitly accepts those means in rewarding what would otherwise be immoral behaviour.

It seems to me redundant to say that there is no mention of the goodness of polygamy in the story. It remains the case that God rewarded both sisters in giving their servants to Jacob; a situation that could have been avoided had both sisters been fertile. Polygamy, as a means in itself, is rewarded. If God found polygamy to be unacceptable, he would not create the situation by which it was the only means towards his particular ends (whatever they may be in this case), let alone reward it.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Simon, before disagreeing with you (I note your respectful disagreement with my interpretation), I will say that, yes, some systematic theology is helpful in producing a more cohesive picture of what the Bible says on a particular issue (my take on what you said). However, it does by necessity assume that 1) all scripture can be systematised, and 2) that its systematisation allows for a clearer understanding of individual cases in the Bible. Without getting into a post-modernist debate about rejections of meta-narratives or whatever, the formation of a systematic theology does not occur without reference to one&#8217;s own historical setting, embedded as it is in particular cultural understandings. So, yes, whilst I can see that systematic theology could help make better sense of a confusing portion of scripture, it itself exists in tension with what could otherwise be read as an internal contradiction. </p>
<p>Now, to respectfully disagree with you. <img src='http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_smile.gif' alt=':)' class='wp-smiley' /><br />
By arguing that God uses &#8216;bad&#8217; situations for his own ends, begs the question of what ends and in what ways do they justify their means. </p>
<p>In the story told here in Genesis 30, God directly intervenes in the lives of people in a way that creates a particular situation. In this example, God controls the fertility of both women that creates a situation that aggravates sibling/ intra-marital rivalry. In producing such a scenario, God then rewards his subjects through acts that are morally questionable &#8211; the giving of servants to produce offspring, which effectively amounts to sex slavery if we assume that those maids had no choice but to sleep with Jacob. If God does not approve the situation that he has had a large role in creating, or at least does not morally approve of the means involved, then it seems very strange that he created the situation to begin with. By arguing that God uses unacceptable means to achieve his more purposeful ends, seems to imply that God has no choice but use those means, despite it being the case in this story that he explicitly accepts those means in rewarding what would otherwise be immoral behaviour.</p>
<p>It seems to me redundant to say that there is no mention of the goodness of polygamy in the story. It remains the case that God rewarded both sisters in giving their servants to Jacob; a situation that could have been avoided had both sisters been fertile. Polygamy, as a means in itself, is rewarded. If God found polygamy to be unacceptable, he would not create the situation by which it was the only means towards his particular ends (whatever they may be in this case), let alone reward it.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Redefining Marriage is Unbiblical by Simon</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/28/redefining-marriage-is-unbiblical/#comment-861</link>
		<dc:creator>Simon</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 07:02:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7510#comment-861</guid>
		<description>I see what you&#039;re saying, Adam, but I do disagree. I interpret that circumstance in Genesis 30 as an example of God working a bad situation for good. I don&#039;t think it follows that, because God uses situation &lt;em&gt;a&lt;/em&gt; to his ends, he morally approves of situation &lt;em&gt;a&lt;/em&gt;. In this instance, God would disapprove of the polygamy, but still utilise it for his ends. Also, there is no clear statement that the polygamy is good in that passage, or anywhere else in the Bible. Whereas there are scriptures which clearly state that monogamy is good. If we take the Bible as a whole, ie. do some systematic theology on the subject of polygamy, then I think we come to the conclusion that God disapproves of polygamy. I appreciate your position, though, and I think it&#039;s worth thinking carefully about that issue.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I see what you&#8217;re saying, Adam, but I do disagree. I interpret that circumstance in Genesis 30 as an example of God working a bad situation for good. I don&#8217;t think it follows that, because God uses situation <em>a</em> to his ends, he morally approves of situation <em>a</em>. In this instance, God would disapprove of the polygamy, but still utilise it for his ends. Also, there is no clear statement that the polygamy is good in that passage, or anywhere else in the Bible. Whereas there are scriptures which clearly state that monogamy is good. If we take the Bible as a whole, ie. do some systematic theology on the subject of polygamy, then I think we come to the conclusion that God disapproves of polygamy. I appreciate your position, though, and I think it&#8217;s worth thinking carefully about that issue.</p>
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		<title>Comment on Redefining Marriage is Unbiblical by Adam</title>
		<link>http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/2012/01/28/redefining-marriage-is-unbiblical/#comment-860</link>
		<dc:creator>Adam</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 28 Jan 2012 05:53:02 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://blog.hillsbiblechurch.org/?p=7510#comment-860</guid>
		<description>Thanks for your reply, Simon. It&#039;s definitely an interesting topic, although not something I have a great deal of knowledge about. However, I&#039;m going to question your stance on the consistency of scripture on the issue of polygamy.

I think to assert that the scriptural stance on polygamy, or marriage more generally, is consistent is highly contestable. At least it is widely contested today. To say that it is consistent depends on a interpretive scheme that renders it consistent, that produces a consistent narrative. By taking the text itself, however, there are plenty of examples in the Bible where the archetype of &#039;one man and one woman marriage&#039; becomes unstuck in light of what seems to be God&#039;s attitude of indifference to the matter.

For example, the story of the rivalry between Jacob&#039;s wives, Leah and Rachel,  not only involves polygamy between husband and wives but also the wives&#039; servants/ slaves (Genesis 30). There is no mention of a married status between Jabob and the servants of his wives, let alone their freedom of consent. Moreover, God plays an active role - one might say, is complicit -  in the rivalry between Leah and Rachel in which God blocks or opens the wombs of one or the other (Gen 29:31-35, Gen 30:6, Gen 30:17-24). Interestingly, according to Leah&#039;s interpretation of her good fortune, she says, &quot;God has given me my wages, because I have given my maid to my husband&quot; (Gen 30:18).  That is, God rewarded her for giving her maidservant to her husband, Jacob. This seems to be an active condoning of polygamy on God&#039;s part.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thanks for your reply, Simon. It&#8217;s definitely an interesting topic, although not something I have a great deal of knowledge about. However, I&#8217;m going to question your stance on the consistency of scripture on the issue of polygamy.</p>
<p>I think to assert that the scriptural stance on polygamy, or marriage more generally, is consistent is highly contestable. At least it is widely contested today. To say that it is consistent depends on a interpretive scheme that renders it consistent, that produces a consistent narrative. By taking the text itself, however, there are plenty of examples in the Bible where the archetype of &#8216;one man and one woman marriage&#8217; becomes unstuck in light of what seems to be God&#8217;s attitude of indifference to the matter.</p>
<p>For example, the story of the rivalry between Jacob&#8217;s wives, Leah and Rachel,  not only involves polygamy between husband and wives but also the wives&#8217; servants/ slaves (Genesis 30). There is no mention of a married status between Jabob and the servants of his wives, let alone their freedom of consent. Moreover, God plays an active role &#8211; one might say, is complicit &#8211;  in the rivalry between Leah and Rachel in which God blocks or opens the wombs of one or the other (Gen 29:31-35, Gen 30:6, Gen 30:17-24). Interestingly, according to Leah&#8217;s interpretation of her good fortune, she says, &#8220;God has given me my wages, because I have given my maid to my husband&#8221; (Gen 30:18).  That is, God rewarded her for giving her maidservant to her husband, Jacob. This seems to be an active condoning of polygamy on God&#8217;s part.</p>
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